New Bel Air

[whvt01]

Our paper just had an article on the new
concept Bel Air. Not as retro looking as
the Bird but a nice clean looking pkg.
It says will be based on a full size
platform. Car was shown at the Detroit
Auto show.

[tleslie]

I saw the bel air..it cant compete, but the mercedes slk at alot more money can! The new european and japanese 2 seaters have more power than the bird, but thats been covered.

[whvt01]

tleslie --- our paper did not go into much
detail. Did you see it in person. Was
wondering what they based it on.

Looked at a Mercedes 2 seater during our
local car show. Seemed smaller than the bird.
Not sure about the model #
Price was around 60K but did have some
performance pkg.

[jodrod]

One of the guys here at work just bought a SLK and it has been back to the shop 5 times already. Once for a lousy prep job, once to replace the fuel level sensor, once to replace a sensor seal in the tranny (leaking fluid) and not sure of the other two trips. I guess it just goes to show no matter how much you pay or the reputation of the manufacturer, things can (and will) go wrong.

[whvt01]

jodrod -- Don't know if this is sour grapes
or what but !! The salesman that ordered
my vette from works with both models. The dealerships are the same owner, Chevy faces
one street, Mercedes the other and Honda to
the side.

Anyway said Mercedes are not what they use
to be in terms of build quality. In order to
compete price wise in todays market a lot
of the hands on is gone. Said took a tour
of the Mercedes plant and the Corvette plant,
did not see that much different. Not putting
down (Mercedes owners) just repeating what
a salesman said.

Mom does like the disappearing top idea on
the little roadster. Just got an E-mail
from an Emil at EZ top in Houston. He thinks
can work something out for her pitched roof
ceiling. Would be easier than installing at
my place and driving back and forth.

[jodrod]

whvt01,

I'm not sour grapes if you are referring to me, just making an observation.

Gary,

Welcome back.

[rlstonejr]

Hi Gary, missed you.

------------------
neiman vin#00035
delivered October 4, 2001

[mikey]

Oh gosh, the as----- is back with his skid pad crap.

We thought we got rid of him.

[Gobird]

Come on people, this IS A T-BIRD site. We don't need any other input from any other make. These people should go to a site dealing with their cars, not ours. I am not a closed minded person but all I want here on this site is about T-Birds. This is what this site is for and nothing else. If Gary likes his MB. Then that is OK. Just keep it off OUR SITE. I guess I am being a Prick about this but if I wanted a MB, or a Chevy I would be on one of their sites. I'm not because I bought a 02 T-Bird and that is all I want to hear about. Sorry about this but I had to VENT.

------------------
Blue on Blue Prem. STILL WAITING Ordered in Jan. 7of12 NOW 4of12
69 Vette
73 MGB
97 F-150 4x4
2-Seadoo Jet Skies
a dog a cat and a couple hundred fish in my pond
Got Vin. 109293 Build Date 01/14

[FDCAPTAIN]

GW You're Back!

You are very correct in asserting your buying power. The BMW M3Convertible is a great auto and much better quality than any Ford product.
I had my NM Bird parked next ot a Black M3 and the lines of the Bird are no contest for the M3.
The performance, safety features, and build quality of the M3 are second to none.

I enjoy my Thunderbird and hope Ford can pull out of a downward spiral both with it's products and people.

Good luck and happy motoring.


------------------
'56 + NM '02 Birds
'98F250'01 Olds Aurora4.0
'68 AMC AMX
'73 Volvo 1800ES

[tr cruiser]

CAPTAIN, you've got to be kidding! The M3 looks like an ugly boat next to the stylish T-bird. No, offense, Gary. http://www.fordthunderbirdforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

[brdman2]

Originally posted by FDCAPTAIN:
GW You're Back!

I had my NM Bird parked next ot a Black M3 and the lines of the Bird are no contest for the M3.



I'm not sure how to interpret this statement, but I would like to think it is meant that the lines or styling of the Bird WIN, with no contest. I can't honestly compare quality or handling, but I can compare what I see, and the Thunderbird body is the winner!

------------------
Dennis Grant
1960 HT 208K
1992 Sport 227K

[FDCAPTAIN]

Gents, That's exactly what I meant. The Thunderbird is breathtaking to look at. The M3 is more of a BMW muscle car and it is styled as such.

I was parked next to another Babyboomer with the same delima as GW, about $50-60K to spend on a car. He looked hard at the Bird, he also owns a Mazda Miata, but decided to go for the faster,four seat M3 Convertible.

So behind every M3Convertible owner I know, is a Bird lover!

[rlstonejr]

Gary has been with us (and at BON) for longer than most of you - and has always provided intelligent and logical complaints about what he feels are the shortcomings of a car for which dealers are charging $50,000.
Some of you will remember "waiting patiently" who did the same. WP and Gary both had a Bird ordered and both cancelled for different reasons. Both liked the looks of the Bird as much as we do, and both argued passionately about what they saw as problems.

Why is it ok for most of you to complain about visor design, boot design, wheels, NM trim not available to all, hardtop fit, Thunderbird Collection delivery, etc., etc., etc., but as soon as Gary pops in with a legitimate comment about the performance of a $50,000 car everyone piles on? I'm still disappointed with the paint job, but have given up ever trying to present a complaint on this board. I own a 1999 Saturn coupe (3 door), a 2000 Chrysler Cyrrus, a 2001 Jag S-Type, and a 2002 Jetta - two of which are black like my Bird, all but the Jag cheaper than the Bird (3 of them half the price of the Bird) and none of them have any orangepeel. Ford says its part of the paint process - every car on the lot has it. BUT they don't sell every car on the lot for $50K. Gary's point is that if you want to sell a $50k car, make it worth $50k - that means styling, fit, finish, visors and performance. Like most of you, I have decided that the styling is so great the deficiencies don't bother me enough to buy something else - but that really means we've chosen style over performance. Gary is suggesting that if Ford wanted to, they could have provided both the style and better performance for this price. so listen to what he has to say or don't read his posts, but stop the stupid piling on.

As far as I'm concerned, Gary, you are welcome anytime.

------------------
neiman vin#00035
delivered October 4, 2001

[whvt01]

jodrod - not talking about you but my
salesman and his Mercedes comment.

Gary - what is the SMG. I had a BMW 5
series and thought M pkg was the performance
line.

That's why would like an off topic so
we can discuss things other than the
bird a little. The site is going to
die if don't bring some other topic
now and than.

[Gobird]

Simply put, I don't agree.

------------------
Blue on Blue Prem. STILL WAITING Ordered in Jan. 7of12 NOW 4of12
69 Vette
73 MGB
97 F-150 4x4
2-Seadoo Jet Skies
a dog a cat and a couple hundred fish in my pond
Got Vin. 109293 Build Date 01/14

[whvt01]

Gobird - only time will tell, who knows.

It seems if someone new comes on board
and doesn't think the T-Bird is the
second coming, they are quick to be
run off. Some do just stir the pot but
others do have good points.

Sort of in-line with what Gary says --
Ford could have at least put all the
options currently on the LS8 on the
new Bird.

[tr cruiser]

Lest my meaning by misconstrued - I meant the 'ugly boat' remark as a rib. Kind of a welcome back to one of our better sparring partners. I never understood the animosity some have expressed toward Gary.

Speaking of expensive German cars with flawless engineering, there was a story in the local paper today (http://beta.kpix.com/news/bcn/2002/01/14/n/HeadlineNews/Update:_Car_Fire_Burn_Victim_in_Critical_Condition .html) about a man who was trapped in his late model Audi when it caught fire and a safety restraining system failed. The fire department rescued him in time, but he was badly injured. Now does that call into question the reputation of all Audis for being 'firetraps'? Of course not, but imagine what the reaction from critics would have been had the car been a Thunderbird - they'd be labeling it a pricy Pinto or worse and predicting Ford's imminent demise. Which I guess some are gonna do anyway.

[This message has been edited by tr cruiser (edited 01-14-2002).]

[10of11]

Apple vs. Orange (with or without peel)
I think it should be pointed out that comparing a $40,000 Thunderbird to GW's $60,000 BMW is an apple vs. orange comparison. Sure, some dealers are setting their price at $50,000 but Ford is manufacturing a $40,000 car. There are cars comparable to the BMW but that discussion, indeed, belongs on another site.

I have read many of the previous discussions involving GW and I agree that he can provide interesting and thought-provoking comments. However, often they are based on a flawed premise (such as the current discussion). All I am trying to say is that we don't need to defend the Thunderbird when it is compared to GW's BMW anymore than GW would need to defend his BMW if it were compared to one of the exotics.

[DavidA]

STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This is about T-Birds, NOT BMW's, Benz's or any other ****ed car on the road. ****, it was so peaceful here for so long!

[mikey]

David, I totally agree with you. He just won't quit his inane blabber. The same drivel for over a year. The guy is a dreamer. He always claims he has ordered, or is thinking about ordering, or is just about to order, or knows somebody who ordered, or some other half-baked claim about some high-performance, rough riding overpowered car.

The TBird is what it is. And what it is is a fantastic looking, great driving comfortable two seat convertible that has no competition at $39,795. We don't drive on skid pads or slaloms. We drive on highways and streets and the TBird is a fun, comfortable, cool looking ride and there is nothing currently like it on the market.

Counter opinions are fine. Thought provoking discussion is stimulating. But irrelevant, inane blabber repeated over and over is just annoying. So, like the majority of others on this board, I wish he would just go away for good and bother a new group of people on the BMW/Porsche/Mercedes boards.



[This message has been edited by mikey (edited 01-15-2002).]

[jawill2000]

Originally posted by DavidA:
STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This is about T-Birds, NOT BMW's, Benz's or any other ****ed car on the road. ****, it was so peaceful here for so long!
I agree.... GW take your crap to a BMW site.

------------------
Jim Williams
'98 Lincoln Continental & waiting for red/red/blk premium Bird (#2 of 2 also VIN-less)
Mass. tag JWBIRD Christmas gift from #3 daughter

[Gary Whitaker]

If you don't like what I have to say, don't read further.

BMW's M3 is made in Germany, with high cost labor, and shipped to the US. It has a base list of $50,000. T Birds cost $45-50,000, unless your brother owns a dealership. Why not compare them? A Ferrari costs $150,000. A Turbo Carrera $125,000. Which car is closer in terms of cost to a BMW M3?

BTW, the only car I ordered in replacement for the TBird was an M3. It too has a long waiting list, but the dealers are not permitted by BMW to sell over MSRP.

Please show me where on this board it limits posts to vacuous blathering about how pretty the car is.

Maybe if more people expressed their displeasure to Ford over the markups, the T Birds would be sold at list.

A lot of you don't realize that your uncritical acceptance of the T Bird is only hurting yourselves in the short run, and Ford in the long run.

[joelja]

Amen, DavidA, mikey, jawill. I am paying MSRP for my TBird. And I don't own a dealership...just did alot of searching.

Gary Whitaker, GET LOST. WE ARE TIRED OF HEARING THE SAME JUNK OVER AND OVER.

------------------
blue/blue/full blue/premium on order: 10 of 18

[This message has been edited by joelja (edited 01-15-2002).]

[DavidA]

GW - You further show your ignorance by stating "T Birds cost $45-50,000". They do NOT cost that, they cost M.S.R.P of $36,000-$39,795.00. Sure, some have paid substancially more, but that was their choice. Ford priced it more than $20,000 less than the M3 or Mercedes or any of the others you are touting. There IS NO COMPARISON between theses cars and they should not be compared. What the hell is the matter with you? -- Price, # of seats, performance -- NON are even close to each other. Let's compare the Ferrari to a Rolls Royce, they are fairly close in price. That's about as dumb as what you are saying! Please -- GO AWAY!

[PA 02 Bird]

Hey guy's... Let him ramble... You guy's keep edging him on.. The more you reply the more he will keep going.... Let him have his own little conversation with himself... The more you scratch the itch, the more it itches....

[mikey]

PA 02 Bird:
We wish you were right. We've tried ignoring him. Someone even started a thread called "Gary Whitaker" a few months ago where dozens of people bashed him. You would think a normal, well-adjusted person would get the hint.

This guy is a nut case and even though he goes away for a while, he always comes back with the same garbage. He obviously doesn't have much of a life and is problably a toal nurd who drives his old Taurus (SHO) and thinks he is a boy racer.

He is actually kind of comical in a pathetic sort of way. But I, like the majority of others here, wish he would go away and find some other place to annoy people with his ignorant blather.

[tbird]

Originally posted by Gary Whitaker:
I just ordered a titanium white 2002 M3 convertible with SMG. I should have it in April. I wonder if my T Bird would be arriving by then, if I hadn't cancelled it. At $60,000 loaded, it is about $10,000 more expensive than the T Bird, but it easily outperforms it in everyway, and seats four. And won't depreciate $15,000 the first year. I resisted buying foreign cars for 20 years. Finally had to give in. Poor old Ford. They just don't have a clue.

Why are we comparing apples and oranges? I doubt many people will run around flagging down M3 owners http://www.autoitalia.org/italiano/bmw21.htm since it looks like everything else they make.

People that get sucked into the resell value are truly pitiful. First of all, if you can afford to pay 60k for a car, who gives a crap what the resell value is? And if you pay 25 percent more for a car with 5 percent better resell value, are you really getting a good deal? You do realize that part of the reason that the car is so expensive is Uncle Same is taxing it and the cost of importing.

A car is not an investment, and no matter what the saleman or magazine says, it is going to cost you an arm and leg to own and operate it.

P.S. What will it cost you to replace your BMW parts vs. your import?


Tbird

[jt2233]

Mikey I agree 100%

[Gary Whitaker]

Gotta scratch that itch.

BMW standard: 48 thousand miles 4 years warranty, bumper to bumper. 3 years - all maintenance costs except tires included.

If I was going to keep my car until I die I wouldn't care about resale value. But in 3 to five years, there probably will be something else I like better.

Apparently, to many T Bird buyers, the term "sporty" would apply to a Crown Vic with a rag top.

And Ford wonders why its market share in cars drops each year, as plants close and workers are fired. Great management team, there.

[mikey]

Now we got him on the defensive....expanding his immature tirade to include the fact that people who admire the new TBird are "losers". Striking out at typo's in our messages....we knew you knew how to spell nerd, Gary. Your picture is next to "nerd" in Webster's.

By the way, Gary, I don't work at Walmart. I don't work at all. I am retired at the age of 48 and am paying cash for my MSRP TBird that I am buying as a weekend toy.

You are a pathetic creep. To reiterate what MANY others have said, get lost with your negative, mindless rantings. We do not like you or want you here. Get it??

[Gary Whitaker]

Mikey, you so impress me. Unfortunately for you, this is a free country and I can say what I choose. You obviously cannot respond to even one of my criticisms, and have an inability to respond intelligently to anyone who disagrees with you. While there are a number of intelligent people here who don't agree with me, most don't stoop to your level of name calling and insults. Maybe you should get a job, if anyone would hire you.

For those who actually care about Ford: Aren't you concerned that the only performance vehicle left is the Cobra SVT? How much life does that car have left? What lines will be abandoned next year? Do you think that Ford handled the T Bird roll out in a professional manner? Wouldn't some of you like to see a performance version?

[RedBirdDlx]

Mikey, I'm reminded of an old saying we had - "Arguing with a Ford parts man is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while you realize the pig loves it!"

Ignore is the verb and Ignoramus is the noun.
He just doesn't get it - WE DON'T CARE WHAT HE THINKS.

Personal note - what part of Phoenix are you in? I have a rental in Mesa that I get out to see now and then. Great country!

[This message has been edited by RedBirdDlx (edited 01-15-2002).]

[jodrod]

Come on guys, enough is enough.

[PA 02 Bird]

I'm with jodrod, enough is enough.. The M3 has it's own problems... Long waiting list, Price Gouging, mechanical problems.. I looked at their forum..(http://www.m3forum.com/m3forumcgi/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi buy what makes YOU happy.. and good luck... even Ferrari has a service department!

[mikey]

RedBrdDlx, thanks for the kind words. I live in Scottsdale, on one of the beautiful golf courses which Scottsdale is famous for.

You are right about the jerk. He is clueless. And all of us who admire the TBird are "losers", according to him.

If that's what a loser is, I am glad to be one. I think the TBird is one stunning car and I am proud that I have one on order. I think everyone else on this board is helpful, courteous, and knowledeable. It is a pleasure to be associated with you all.

Now, if we could just get rid of this ONE wacko, life would be even more wonderful.

[SoCal Tbird]

Gary said that BMW dealers could not sell their cars over MSRP. If you get on Ebay and look at item 600285498 you will see a dealer that is taking bids for the right to buy a 2002 bmw m3. The current bid is $10K. So does that make the price of the M3 $70,000?

[SoCal Tbird]

The bid for the M3 is back down to $6100. I guess someone backed out. But my point is that some BMW dealers are just as bad as Ford dealers when it comes to selling their cars over MSRP.

[LON O'CONNELL]

Maybe Chevrolet will come out with a four (4) door Z06 that Gary can trade his SHO in on. LOL

------------------
Yellow/Yellow Prem. 02 Bird w/full accent
1999 F150 Super Cab 4x4 Off Road
1998 Taurus SE Sport 24V

[DavidA]

I vowed I would not write anotehr word, but the co-incidence is just too good to pass up. In this week's issure of Autoweek, there is the AutoFile on the M-3. Among the dislikes, there is - Choppy Ride, Rough Idle at startup, and Dealer Markups. They list the proce of the car and the prices paid and the average is over $5000 MORE than MSRP. T-Bird doesn't ride choppy, and has one of the smoothest engines in use today, and --- well, Dealers WILL also try to gouge.

[mikey]

Nope,

I'll stick with my TBird:

Better styling
Better ride
More comfortable
Better price
Smoother engine
Nicer people

[tbird]

Originally posted by Gary Whitaker:
I guess that any line of car will produce a couple with bugs, but the M3 I test drove (manual) at the dealers had a smooth idle. For those interested, you can buy it at Prestige BMW in Paramus at list-titantium white with grey leather. I passed on it because I want the SMG.

So are you trying to say that the car the manufacturer turns over to Car and Driver or Autoweek might be a lemon? If you owned a company and wanted to turn over your product to a reviewer, don't you think you would test it out yourself to make sure it was the best specimen?

Tbird

[RACERROGER]

Gary, I made an offer to you last summer for you to see mine in White Plains. You didn't show up, you didn't respond. Go back to BON and vent over there.

[InfernoRed]

Afternoon folks,first off lemme start by saying I do love the new T-Bird.I have no complaints with the style at all.Infact all the current autos on the market harkening back to past legendary styling are nice looking machines.I also do not own a new T-Bird nor can I at this point...simply a matter of cost.

That is what I was wanting to discuss.In the sense of the vehicle and what it costs to purchase(over MSRP totally aside),I believe all 2002 current owners and those waiting have been "taken" so to speak.This is NOT implying that any of you are fools or whatever for paying what you did...wether on a markup or not.But rather that I think all of you are victims of corporate greed.

You see,about three and a half years ago,I began searching and considering purchasing a 3rd vehicle....something for fun and to serve as a backup for our other two vehicles...definently a winter garage sitter unless as mentioned before,backup is required.At that time...the beginning of the "affordable" retros fashion began.I was very impressed with all three designs at the time being shown.The PT as a confirmed production,the T-Bird not 100% confirmed but close...and the upcoming Chevy SSR which had been shown but not confirmed as a production.We all know the PT settled in at about $16,500 base price prior to dealer markups.The SSR...who knew..because no confirmation for production had even been given then.And then the T-Bird.....As soon as the T-Bird was confirmed,I went to the dealer for any available information.They couldn't tell me to much...no surprise,BUT they did tell me a base price of $25,000 dollars.This was later "confirmed" by several leading auto mags that said the same...Car and Driver I believe even herralded it as the "rebirth of the affordable luxury two seat roadster"or something like that.Now this price put it well within reach.Later as the SSR was confirmed...so Chevy announced the same...a base of approximately $25 grand...appearently to compete with the T-Bird...if not in design,then in cost.This left me a choice of three neat designs that more than fit what I wanted.

Now though,enter the corporate giant...as the demand for info and interest grew so did the base price.Now we have a base of around $36,000 grand and a top of the line around $39,000.This unfortunately knocked it off my scope so to speak.The SSR hadn't shifted posible price yet.BUT once T-Bird orders began to be taken and Chevy saw how fast they were going(especially the much talked about Niemun Marcus phone sales)Chevy then began to shift the price.Now the darn SSR sits with no hard number for a price yet BUT the head of SSR developement has said officially the price will fall between the top of the line Camaro Z-28 Convertable(around 32K) and a Corvette Z06(roughly 55K) leading to most car enthusiast accepting a base of $40,000 or so.Once again knocked off my radar scope of affordability.This was also a disapointment but well after my actual purchase that I went with.

As far as the T-Bird goes...what ticks me off for you lucky owners is Ford Motor Company and the appraoch taken with all of you.If they could have made a decent profit with this car at $25k(same with Chevy)they should have left it there.Instead they saw a chance to take what they could get(I know this is capatalism but still it is not right.)and they did.How ever they did not appearently from many posts that I have seen figure in better quality and design in some places for the extra $10,000 they finally settled on.At $36,000 dollars,no one and I mean NO ONE should have to settle for a luxury car with orange peel on ANY part of the car.The fit and finsh should be one of the most researched,thought out and delivered upon item of a car designated the Flagship of the Line.Ford has NO EXCUSE for that.The same will be for the SSR.Heck,$40,000 in the mid seventies would have bought a nice(not neccisarilly big)home.

What I purchased was delivered as it was advertised.Nothing more nothing less.I got every option available at the time(except leather interior-really do not like leather)and rolled it off the lot for exactly $20,683 dollars.What I got is extremly solid.Has excellent fit and finish(including no orange peel even on plastic fascia pieces)and a very enjoyable drive.No recalls yet either or trips for maintenace other than oil changes.Plus after almost two years now(May 15th will be it's two year anniversary)I still get thumbs ups,waves,and compliments.Now if one company can deliver as originally promised(dealer markups and shake downs aside)why can't they all?I am just really frustrated for you guys on that whole issue.You guys either already own or are waiting on a very beautiful machine.You guys have paitently put up with alot to get them...now the very least Ford could do is deliver as close to perfection as can be.They want to recapture there title as the world leader of autos they need to start with realizing once again the customer(and I do not mean the dealer)comes first.

Now as I said,I do not own a 2002 T-Bird but would certainly love to.But we have three reliable vehicles...two brand new and one a trustworthy old beater.So I cannot afford one.But I hope you will not mind my occasional posting in here.For even though I do not own one I am still an enthusiast.

InfernoRed http://www.fordthunderbirdforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

[SoCal Tbird]

Ford already makes a 25K sports car. It is called a mustang.

[InfernoRed]

Not talking about a "sports car" here...I was talking about Ford failing to deliver what they promised....a $25K LUXURY two door roadster....big difference than a sports car.I never once said a sports car.And the Mustang is fine IF you want something hundreds of thousands already own.

InfernoRed http://www.fordthunderbirdforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

[DavidA]

Exclusivity usually costs something extra. When and IF Ford reported a price of $25,000, it was a preliminary. As production estimates ramp up, costs are firmed up and a more accurate number is arrived at. Alot of it has to do with market placement, if this is a limited production vehicle with a market looking for exclusivity, then the price will go up accordingly. Although I didn't read the article, I would suspect that it was very early in the game and somewhat optomistic reporting by the magazine, and was not a direct Ford quote.

[SoCal Tbird]

Can you please tell me what LUXURY car you bought for $20,683. I may want to cancel my order.

[DavidA]

I think he bought the PT Cruiser with Leather interior. It was the only one of his 3 choices that came in under the $25,000 the had budgeted.

[SoCal Tbird]

That is a very nice car for the price. It would be even better you could get one with a V6 engine.

[rlstonejr]

be careful IR, we don't all take kindly to your kind 'round here.

------------------
neiman vin#00035
delivered October 4, 2001

[InfernoRed]

Now hold on a minute here Rlstonejr.....what is "your kind" anyway?Define that would you.If you would kindly read my post...you would see that I love the T-Bird alot.I was not knocking anyone purchaseing one or did you miss that?What I WAS knocking is the overall Ford Motor Company marketing strategy on this car.That is all.Yes I do own a PT...so what?I have an avid enthusiasm for many American makes of autos.As to the "your kind" you want to know what "kind" I belong to???I belong to the "kind" generally listed as an American...with all the freedoms involved in that title...INCLUDING being able to come into an OPEN FORUM might I point out and discuss autos with folks of the same interesst.So why don't you get the heck off your self appointed highhorse and get your temper under some control.If you would have simply read without trying to impose things between the lines you THOUGHT you saw...then maybe you would simply have seen in my longwinded way what I was trying to get across.

InfernoRed

[jodrod]

IR,

If you go back and look as some of the previous posts on this thread I think you will find that rlstonejr is one of the more open minded here, he was just pointing out that not all are.

[InfernoRed]

jodrod...thankyou for pointing that out...I stand corrected.So I offer an honest apology to rlstonejr if I took his message out of context.....my mistake not his.I am kind of cranky when I get off work in the morning and being this is about the only time I get to participate in this type of stuff I sometimes see things that are not there.Once again I apologize to rlstonejr AND anyone else who I might have offended.

InfernoRed